The Psychology of Driving: Navigating the Human Factor in Road Safety

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on the Safety Connect podcast today, and for everybody who is tuned in and who's going to be listening to this or watching this. Anaga is a practicing psychologist trained in traffic psychology from Triplati, Hyderabad. She has experience of working in therapeutic settings, research field, and higher education industry, and now currently Anaga runs her own practice. So once again, thank you so much for joining us on the Safety Connect podcast, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Then, when I was like, really looking forward to the conversation, and I was really interested in the whole idea that the organization was putting forward towards the safety and regulations. Speaker 1: Yeah. Great. So, how does one become a traffic psychologist? That's very new to me. Speaker 2: Yeah. So, we don't have a specialized traffic psychology course as such in India. So, my journey was, I was into the psychology part, BSc, MSc, everything was in psychology and focused in the clinical perspective itself. And I was also taking a diploma in PG diploma in industrial psychology. It's after that that I really wanted to engage in the driver behavior, vehicle design, and all of that. Those parts, and I decided to take an MPhil research which was entirely focused on traffic psychology. So, which is where I did my MPhil from IIT Hyderabad. It was not Triple IT, it was IIT Hyderabad. So, yes, uh, that is where I got to specialize my research in traffic psychology. My professor, Dr. Ganesh, also helped me a lot in understanding this field because it's a very new field, so we had to explore a lot of intricacies like how it's going to work and how we can conduct research in this field. And also, we were working on that part during my MPhil period, and after that also, he is still my mentor. So, we used to have like certain projects and work or paper publications as such. So, we used to work in that area itself. Speaker 1: Okay, interesting. So, I was actually having a conversation with somebody a short while ago who is from Triple IT, okay? So, I would have probably mentioned it as Triple IT, so my apologies for that. Speaker 2: No, no, she's gracious, and right, like also people used to mistake. There is also one reason because people wouldn't really expect a discipline like psychology in a very technical institute like IIT. So, this is a common like issue that happens with people because there are also humanities and social science departments, liberal arts departments, everything in IITs as well now. So, that's a very good thing because we get exposed to very high-quality faculties and research culture over there. Speaker 1: Okay, got it. So, all the learnings from whatever you kind of got from that course, I'm assuming that's something which is kind of now amalgamated into like a course that you're probably giving out to companies and organizations. Is that how you're currently operating? Speaker 2: Yeah, mostly from there it all started from there because even there we didn't have a syllabus as such on traffic psychology. It was mostly the other psychology papers and everything as part of the course work. We were having various disciplines, but my specialization per se, we were like choosing on traffic psychology. So, we were reading papers and understanding from the authors who are there, mostly outside India. So, we also understood that there is a large disparity of understanding how it works on Indian culture, and there are really less studies that are prevalent to or particular with the Indian culture. So, yeah, that is where we were entirely focusing on how it is different from other countries and how we can adapt them to the Indian culture as well. Speaker 1: So, how do we do that? Mostly by understanding the culture, because largely speaking, we can compare it as individualistic culture and collectivistic culture and all that. But there are also very, because India being a very heterogeneous country with a lot of different cultures within the country itself. When you go from state to state or from district to district, it's very different. Like the culture and everything is very different. So, we will need to like engage in understanding these intricacies. And when it comes to cities, people from all these arenas and like all these cultures are put together in these major cities, right? So, understanding people and taming people, basically, within the city limits is also very difficult because for what is suitable for one culture may not be suitable for people from the other culture. What is even respectable for one person could be slightly offensive for the other one, even the slangs or the proper research or everything would be like very different from culture to culture. So, we will need to have a, you know, proper understanding of the cultural differences and how that can be like accepted, made acceptable, and inclusive of various cultures. Speaker 1: All right, so if we look at really ensuring that people are driving safe and there is good driving behavior, a key aspect to that is like a defensive driving training that everybody should kind of undergo and get good at. Right now, when in the light of what you just mentioned about each culture has different nuances to it, and a detailed study needs to be done towards that, how should a corporate or a city municipality or a state approach these aspects, and then ensure that they have the right research which is going into putting in place a good defensive driving program? That's one, and also, how do they actually implement something like this? Speaker 2: Got it. So, defensive driving has sort of a universal, you know, some rules and things like that when it comes to like safety on the road. But there can be minor cultural differences as well. So, one major thing that it puts forward is predicting and understanding human behaviors, which we need to, rather than human behavior, we could say the drivers, because we need to understand how the driver who's riding or driving one vehicle is thinking or going to manual because even if you're a pedestrian or something, when you're deciding to cross the road, even if it's a zebra lane or something like that, looking at the speed of the vehicle or like we used to have the problems in physics, right? Like the person is driving in this much speed, and like how much time would it take to break the vehicle and things like that. But we can't do that in real life, like sitting on the road, we can't do all these calculations with the person, driver, or anything like that. And we also don't know the driving pattern of that person. That person would actually decide to break or drive through. So, we will have to understand from the behavioral patterns of the vehicle. So, that is one thing, like understanding or like predicting and managing driver behavior is very important. So, in one thing, I would suggest is, in whichever culture you are, or in whichever region you are, have a basic understanding of the people around, or if you like, have a all in their driver, something like that. Be prepared to have unexpected things as well. So, we need to have a proactive mindset for that. So, that would be the first thing, proactive hazard management would be the first thing. So, we need to be able to understand and predict the behavior of other people, so that we can also predict the hazards that can come with it. So, there is something that we used to say when it comes to defensive driving, assume that you are driving on the road, and every other people on the road is driving madly, or they are all mad. So, that is one keyword we used to say in this defensive driving, because we have no clue how the other person is going to respond. It might be a very familiar vehicle, for example, you, you have a, you know, stereotype towards a particular vehicle. Imagine, like, maybe Inova or Kia cars, people with these particular models do drive very recklessly, or say a tanker lorry or something like that. So, they, they are, they, they wouldn't break, you would have several stereotypes with that. But what if that stereotype breaks? Is something that we need to understand, because you might assume that, okay, person driving this particular model of a car will stop for me because they are, or some brands and things, we used to have stereotypes. But what if it doesn't happen? So, we, when you're approaching a junction or something like that, expect that the other person is not going to break or not going to stop for us. So, we need to have that mindset, so that even if, okay, if the person is braking well, and good, we could go past the junction of things like that. But if the person is not braking, also, we'll be sure that we are not put in danger, or the other person also not put into danger. And in a similar way, we need to adapt to these conditions as well, when it comes to like cities or new places, we need to be mindful of where we are driving, and what we are driving, the kind of model of vehicle that we are driving. We need to understand if that is actually handy for us. If you know human factor economics, like how our body is built, and how it is, how it can manner the vehicle, and things like that. Speaker 1: Being mindful might sound, you know, very fancy, and things for the things meant for leveled-up people, and all of that. But being mindful very simply means that you're present in that moment, or rather consciously present in the moment, or the task that you're doing. So, imagine you are, you know, even simply sitting, and staring at something, or like sitting, and enjoying the nature, or sitting, and enjoy watching a movie, or things like that. Watch it mindfully, rather than switching it to the phone, like attending the phone, thinking about what you will do after this thing, and how, what kind of like food you want to eat after the movie, and things like that. Rather, focus on the movie that you're watching, and in a very similar way, when you're driving, let's focus on the act of driving, because it's not just, uh, you know, something that we do out of, uh, or something that we manner, just like a machine. It also involves a lot of socio-cultural aspects as well, because you are going to have the control of a machine. So, I used to say that these machines can be weaponized as well, as you see in road ranges, and many of the incidents. So, we need to be mindful that what we're driving, or the fact that we have a driving license, is a responsibility towards us, and to other people. So, the basic sense of citizenship also comes into defensive driving, and another major factor is that we need to understand what are the human limitations we have, or limitations as a human being, so that we can reduce our risk. We have limited attention, we have limited focus, we have all of these very limited. We cannot be many times, we tend to overestimate what are the capabilities that we have. And for that reason, we need to, we don't need to underestimate also, we need to understand what are our limitations. Imagine you're having a fever, and you're very tired, and everything like that. So, you need to know that you may not be able to drive as efficient, or you may not be able to take a decision as efficient as you are in a very healthy state, or you had a very bad day at the office, or you had like a very some sort of crisis, or some emotional issues at home. So, you need to understand that you will be preoccupied with those thoughts, and you will have less focus on that day. So, rather than driving, like having a very sporty pattern of driving, or things like that, maybe that particular day, not saying that driving sporty is bad, or anything like that. It's okay, as long as you have control over the vehicle. But on days where you feel you weak, or you are in a very anxious state, or tensed, or something like that, have some control on it. So, those basic things, those would be things that, apart from the very technical learning pattern of the defensive driving, as a traffic psychologist, I would also put in these kind of things into the picture. Speaker 1: Interesting. So, one thing that stuck is, think that everybody else on the road is mad. That's an interesting framework to apply while always on the road. And another thing that you mentioned, which is very interesting, is that certain vehicles, certain people who drive certain vehicles have a characteristic driving type. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Speaker 2: One, this is kind of, you know, it could have my own stereotype as well, or my observation, like from the childhood, and everything like that. It could be the capacity of the vehicle also. I want to add one more thing here. Yeah. Like, because you know that, like people who drive cars, they drive in a certain way. People who drive cars, they're also categorized in a certain way, yeah. So, yeah, so, where is this stemming from, or what do you think is causing this? So, uh, okay, let me put it this way. When you're wearing, or when you're going to attend the function, and uh, it's a very official function, and if you're wearing, you don't know that there is this particular function happening in your office, or things like that. You just enter, and you wear in a very casual dress, where other people are very dressed up, and everything, and if you were very casual, you would feel a bit conscious, as long as you are like very chill about all of these things, you would feel a bit conscious, and misfit, right? And the same way, if you are going in a very well-dressed way to a function, you would feel very confident, also, right? So, imagine this dressing, or attire, or the way you appear, like replace this with a vehicle. When you have a vehicle that is like so masculine, good-looking, or everything like that, certain kind of personality just comes into you, right? So, when you, as you said, like this, this arrived, where you were saying about the Thar, so when you have a very capable, or very sporty car, like a Thar, you feel that you are driving something really good. And you feel more confident. So, that is one very surface-level observation that I can say about this. But the other thing is like the capability, actual capability that the vehicle has. So, there are certain models which weigh lighter, and for that reason, it can, you know, it has better torque. It has, but it can have like zero to 60 speed, and everything would be like really low. So, that overtaking, maneuvering, it would all be very easy. So, they also know that they can jump from one lane to the other in split seconds. But someone else who's driving, not that efficient car, would also know that they don't have that power of switching from one lane, or like overtaking in split seconds, or things like that. So, we know, like, to be like very honest with it, like the Suzuki cars, which weigh very less, and which can be like maneuvered in a very sporty way, I'm talking about very Indian cars, in that perspective, is very different from maybe other cars that are there in the Indian market. So, those people say, for example, Swift, or cars in that segment, can be driven very quickly. So, as you learn to observe these patterns with the vehicles, so if I am trying to cross the road, and if I see this Swift vehicle, and some other, take some other, maybe Honda Maze, or some other vehicle, for that matter, you would, I would actually be a little more cautious about the Swift vehicle, because I know the capability of the vehicle to, you know, uh, the spike in speed would be like really the torque, and everything would be high, and it has a capability to come very fast, to me, right? And if it's again a Thar, or something like that, they, if I am driving, they wouldn't mind a minor scratch, or things like that, on their car, because it is not going to affect them, or if it's a lorry, or a bus, transport bus, or anything like that, okay, specifically for transport buses, they don't have to face a lot of legal complication, or it's not their vehicle, per se, right? So, one small damage, or a scratch, is not going to affect them, so we have to be aware that they don't mind making a small scratch, or anything with us, but our car, like economic factor, plus the safety factor, if they make a slight push, also, we might jump off the lane, and we might hit something else, and they are bigger ones. So, in these ways, we will have eventually an understanding of the heterogeneous, all of the vehicles that we have on the road. And there is also the social hierarchy, and power system that exists here. And that is being evidently shown on the road also. Because the people who are having a cycle, or something like that, would definitely feel envious with the motorcyclist. Motorcyclists will also have, like, this, the sporty ones, or the other ones, would have sort of a superiority over the other ones, because they can ride faster, and in a very tricky way, and the luxurious cars, and the normal Indian cars, and everything on the road, so all of these people, they also know, some of them driven by drivers, and some of them would be like their own driving their cars, so there are a lot of ego issues, and the complexity that are also working on the road. You wouldn't like a person who was having a small car, overtaking your vehicle, that you know has a greater capability. Your ego can work. Not for everybody, this is more like a larger generalization. The observations that we can make on a very heterogeneous city, I mean, inside a very heterogeneous city traffic culture. Speaker 1: Interesting. And the person who is traveling in that luxury car is envious of the person who's going in that helicopter, right? Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, very much, very much. It never ends, also. Yeah, true. And also, uh, an interesting thing that I came across, right, is that there's somebody who is, uh, who was maybe in a two-wheeler first, and then they're going into, like, say, a four-wheeler, maybe they would start with something which is a little more, a little more economical, which would also imply that the engine capacity is going to be not as much, and so they attract that, and then slowly they progress into a much more larger vehicle, much more powerful vehicle, right? And today, what's happening is, you, you have banks who are giving out loans in a very more easily compared to what it was, way now, because of that, if you, maybe, wanted to go in for, say, a car, which is like an 800 cc, or a 1000 cc car, which might cost anywhere from 5 lakhs to 6 lakhs, or 7 lakh rupees, wherein you would have an EMI of somewhere like around 8, 10,000, or something like that. Now, uh, these other vehicles, right, even if you talk about Kretas, and all of those vehicles, they have such a wide price bracket, also, at which you can get it. Anywhere from, say, 11, 12 lakhs, all the way to 20, 20 plus lakhs, right? So, the entry-level Kretas would still have, like, a good, like a solid engine, but the person would have to spend only maybe, say, 5,000 more on their EMI, and then they're able to get that vehicle. So, so that's kind of rubbing off, also, in terms of how they're driving, right? The way they would have been driving a two-wheeler is also now how they're driving this vehicle with a larger engine capacity, and more power. So, that's also something which is kind of, you know, it, it plays, or it has an effect on how a particular person drives. Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, yeah, I've also driven certain cars where, in your AC controls, everything, you need to, it's through the screen, which is very uncomfortable, especially in rainy conditions, we might have to switch on the temperature, like play with the temperature, and everything like that. Speaker 2: True, I mean, if you drive that car, like, after I, I mean, for days, or weeks together, then probably you can hang. But to begin with, it's not ideal. And now I'm also seeing that more of these auto manufacturers, they're incorporating buttons. They're not completely doing away with the buttons, but then incorporating the buttons also into it. But again, if you look at the Teslas, and all of that, you don't have any buttons anywhere. But again, there, you have your full self-drive, and all of those other features to kind of prevent you from getting into a crash. But that's not always going to be the situation for every single car out there, right? Speaker 1: So, I think, especially on Indian roads, because it's very unpredictable, especially when you, when you come to Kerala, and all, I don't know if you have visited, we have like lots of turns, and hill climbs, and everything, it's so unpredictable, and even the national highways can go as narrow as it can be. I've never seen a narrower national highway, because we have mountains, and everything on both sides, and things like that. So, it has to be like that. Not blaming on the engineers, or anything like that, but that is a limitation we have. And on such roads, it's scary that you have a lot of blind curves, and everything like that, and people are maneuvering the touchscreen. Speaker 2: True, true. And so, I know Kerala. I was actually born in Kerala, and then I moved out of, born there, but after I brought up in Bangalore. So, I know that I've traveled there multiple times, and also, the buses are, bus drivers are very bad there. I know. It's competition. What they doing, or what they being told, or what they being preached, but they, pathetic. So, the speeding, the rash driving, the everything is so complicated in that. Yeah, bus drivers make it so complicated. Speaker 1: So, what I do is, I avoid, there are these bypasses, and things like that, where they don't have the bus permits, so when I'm going from my place to, like, a different place, things like that, the distance might be more, but I prefer to go through the way where there are no buses. So, because otherwise, things get so complicated with the buses, and so unpredictable, also. They just overtake, just to stop on a bus stop, right in front of them, and we have no idea why they have overtaken, and a lot of things, we find scary, that are they intending to kill somebody, is what I used to feel at times. Speaker 2: Yeah, what, what, what is going through their mind, like, why do they do something so stupid, that way? One thing I have found is the effect of drug, that is definitely there, even if they accept, or the authorities accept, that is there, actually, because we have been seeing, and I've been interacting with a lot of people, so the drug effect is definitely there. And then, I don't know, the time gaps, that's been given, is said as one of the issues, like they have to start at, say, 10 o'clock, and they have to reach their destination at 11, 22, that would be the time given for them, so they are in a rush to reach there, and the competition, there are a lot of buses, and population, also, because even if, even though there are a lot of buses, also, it's all crowded, again, because we have a, like, population is so high, so the demand is there, and there are also several vehicles that are coming on the road, like from cycles, there are cyclists, very prominent, and from there to all the sort of, like, trucks, and everything, is still there on the car, like, on the road, so it gets so complicated, even to sit inside, I used to say, we are sitting inside, you know, a water theme park, like, or a very adventure park, or things like that, when you're right behind the driver, you don't know, I used to think, if the driver is seeing things, or because that is never seen on their face, also, like they would be so at ease, that it's, they're not even tensed, and sitting right behind them, we would be just holding things, and we would be like, even if you're not a believer of God, you would just call out all the God's name, that's what we used to say, like commonly in Kerala, because you tend to seek help from somebody to save us from the driver. Speaker 1: So, there has been, like, a lot of funny instances, and things like that. But, yeah, it's probably very complicated that way. Why? I mean, I think that, see, if there is intent to change it, they can do it, right? So, for example, if authorities are strict, if the enforcement is strong, they can do it. Why do you think they're spineless? Speaker 2: I think, currently, situations are slightly changing, because of the major accidents that took place, there has been a lot of, not just the economical, but when you say the cultural, human beings have also lost their life due to the reckless driving, and things like that. So, working with, or talking with, the enforcement team, and everything like that, what I felt is, they are also trying to do their best, but the resistance from the people is also a major issue. Whatever I find, that I find, that it'll hard to accept, because if I mean, you're the enforcer, your job is to enforce it, you ability to take away that transporter's permit, you have the ability to seize the vehicles, you have the ability to make sure that that guy doesn't get behind the wheel, ever, right? Then, why aren't you doing your job? Uh, we would say, I mean, I should definitely say, it's corruption, because that is all over, every place, it's like people who doesn't even have, I mean, who's not even 18, are getting licenses, across India. I know, like many of my friends, also, who are there in Hyderabad, who got their license when they were 17, who have never seen a driving school, or even the RT office, or anything like that, they just got it into their house, because of their privilege, and power, and political power, and things like that. So, these are happening everywhere, I mean, not everywhere, but in various places that I've lived, and like spoken with, that is happening, the corruption is happening, and that is one, probably, one major reason. But the other one, I was saying, is like a larger perspective, like about the white, like, there was a rule that came, that all the tourist buses have to be colored white, so that the aim would be to, like, you know, reduce the kind of competition they have on the decoration, and all of those things, and it becomes a very decorative element, rather than a vehicle that's taken for a tourist purpose, or anything like that. So, for that, without understanding the logic, and everything like that, people just go for retaliating against the rules, and everything like that. And we are very resistant to changes, we don't want changes. Like, if you are going in a particular way, and a very small change of having a board in front of you would trigger you, you would be like, why would they do that, why would they do this, and everything, and when the AI camera came, there was, like, all of these issues, yes, there would be, like, lot of scam, or whatever it is, I'm not very sure, like, there would be, uh, all of those issues, that's happening with it, but we need to look forward, why this idea is implemented, if there was corruption, or scam, or something going behind it, let's fight for the scam, or the corruption, not for the whole of AI camera, and not to remove the whole of AI camera, because what AI camera does is actually for the good only. Like, I know a lot of people who have changed the driving patterns, once the AI camera got implemented. Even at my home, like, I used to be very strict about wearing helmets, like all the passengers have to wear helmets, is what I used to say. Even, like, V3 of us traveling on a two-wheeler, also, I used to insist that V3 wear the helmet. So, this pattern was, like, I was seen as a very, you know, uh, exaggerated person, in the family, like, the whole of the family, they would be like, you're exaggerating things, like that, and everything, but when they came, they started following the rules, because we don't know where we are going to fall, right, on the tubulars, we could just fall in, just in front of your house, and, like, hit your head, so rules will be followed, only when the enforcement is very strong, and for the enforcement to be strong, people, and the opposition part, like the government opposition, and the citizen, has to cooperate with that. We need to understand why that has to come into place, rather than just as a political game, is what I have understood. I'm not aligned with any of the political parties, just as an envy thing, but what I felt is, whichever the ruling, or party is, they have come up with an idea, if it's ideal for the society, if it's for the safety of the people, if there are certain loopholes, help them, or protest towards closing the loopholes, rather than opposing the whole enforcement system, is what I would generally suggest. And that's what's happening, whenever a new rule comes, because we're all, we have that inertia, resistance to change, when you're going in a pattern, you don't want to change, but once the enforcement makes sure that the rule comes in, now it's all peaceful, every buses are having unified colors, and everything like that, nobody's having a problem, now. So, it goes like that. So, yeah, human beings, in that way, is very complicated, also, when it comes to resistance, politics, power, corruption, and all of those aspects, also, come into the safety. Speaker 1: So, one thing that even these people who are in enforcement, who are maybe cutting corners, for whatever reasons, right? Maybe because they receiving pressure from their political bosses, or maybe their department has an innate way of doing things, which they don't want to change, for whatever reason. They need to keep in mind that even their family members would be traveling on the road, right? So, it's not like they have this force field around them, which would prevent anything from happening to them, or their families, anything can happen, anytime, right? And it's their decisions, which determine what effects can happen to, to them, their families, to society at large, and I think karma exists, right? As long as you are not affected by a particular issue, that never becomes an issue for you. Be it, be any rule, as long as a celebrity, or a very powerful person, or an influential person, has faced with a certain issue, be it, be any kind of thing, that becomes sensational. But what about a lot of Indian citizens, who have been through the same situation? What is so special about the other people, who can be product of a sensational news? So, that is always there, when, when one of them has hurt, the whole rules can be changed. Speaker 2: Yeah, true, so one thing that we also encounter, right, like, even if somebody is driving well, following the rules, and going properly, with creating any issue, this still could encounter people on the road, who kind of, uh, you know, are, are angry, or they might just want to create a fight, for the heck of it, and just maybe, it's that, I don't know, it's just a group of friends, who are together, they just want to do something, because they're bored, right? In that situation, how do you think one should navigate it? Speaker 1: So, one thing, generally, about the reckless driving, about the road rage, and things like that, is we need to be, it's more like a defensive strategy, that we need to use. Irrespective of the fact that they were right, or wrong, or whatever it is, if you find that the situation is dangerous, you need to stay calm, and composed, for your own sake. Rather than, you know, the other person would be the person who's wrong, there, they might have done a very bad thing, but rather than teaching a lesson, or anything, it might sound like a very good thing, to a whole humanity, as such, like a positive punishment, and things like that, they should also know what it feels to have things like that, but for the moment, for your own safety, especially while you have a vehicle on hand, what you need to do is stay calm, and composed, and the first thing, like, you know, it could be, it might sound very artificial, it might look very artificial, when you do that, but count down from 10 to 0, or something like that, so that you just breathe in, and breathe out, once, and then think, if it's actually worth a fight, or worth you know, speaking out, or anything like that, because you, the first thing that you need to do is to avoid engagement with such people. So, if somebody is showing road rage with you, just avoid the engagement, at first, because it's not safe for you to engage with somebody who is emotionally, and you know, with all the adrenaline rush, and everything like that, there will be, like, in a very spike situation. So, the first thing would be, we would have resistance, because we also have the same emotions, we would feel like, if they can show, why can't I? I also have power, I can call this person, and everything like that. But irrespective of all the power, and everything you do, what if they have a knife, or a gun, or something like that? It's all gone, right? I mean, people are like that. So, considering those situations, and it might affect the person who was traveling with you, as well. Who have... Yeah, it's a family, or a close friend, or a colleague, or somebody who trusted you, and who's coming with you, nothing might happen to you, because you know all of these defensive skills, and everything like that, maybe you know martial arts, or you know how to drive very fast, and things like that, but the other fellow, poor fellow, sitting with you, may not know any of these, and that person can fall into trap, more like a very, like, you know, movie twist, and everything like that. So, the first thing is to, like, stay calm, second would be to avoid the engagement, any sort of engagement with that person, or with the situation that you're having. Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a question, you have, yeah, sure, sure, sure, I have a question, there, right? So, okay, I'm in a situation, I'm at a, I'm at a traffic stop, and somebody is just very raged, and then their vehicle is in front of me, and then they're coming towards my way, to maybe pick up a fight, right? What should I do in that situation? Speaker 2: I would really suggest that we have a, we have a cam, dash cam, or even if it's for a toddler, have some material to document it, because that time may not be the right time to respond, it just diffusing the situation, just escaping from the situation, would be the ideal one, or if it's that dangerous, say, you're sure that that person is going to hit you, or like do something on you, seek help, like call the police, like your strategic brain, or the very logical brain, has to work, rather than the emotion, because you might feel that you need to respond, at least, like verbally, you need to have a very powerful debate with the person, why the person was wrong, and things like that. I have also done the same mistake, but there is no use, is what I have understood, because you will lose your energy, you will get a bad migraine, that person, you have the fear for a couple of days, what if that person retaliates, or is following you, and things like that, right? So, the best part to, you know, retaliate with such people, would be to document it, and give a complaint, officially, or just follow up in that way, and if possible, in a very anonymous way, because why would you want to waste your energy for such people? So, avoiding physical, and even the mental trauma, is also very important here. So, documented, having dash cams, or the other kind of cameras on vehicle, is very, very, very important, because starting from insurance, and things like that, to avoiding such dangerous situations, you can have it, so that that's